#209 - Safeguard your Interior Design business, with Katie McFarlan
Running a business is deeply personal and today I’m sharing a special episode for all my interior design business owners out there. Your creativity, your vision, your late nights perfecting client presentations - it's all an extension of who you are. But here's what I've learned from countless conversations with designers: passion alone won't protect your business when things go wrong.
I recently spoke with Katie McFarlan from Dakota Design Company, who really brought this point home. Katie isn't an interior designer herself, but a business consultant who specialises in the operational side of design businesses. With over 20 years in operations and project management, plus experience running her own wedding and event planning business, she understands luxury service industries from the inside out. She's worked with over 400 interior design firms, helping them streamline operations so they can focus on what they love most: creating beautiful spaces.
When Trust Turns Into Theft
Unfortunately, Katie knows firsthand what it feels like to have her intellectual property stolen. Despite having solid terms of use in place, a client that she had worked with closely stole her business processes and templates and presented Katie's work as their own. Investigating further, Katie discovered that it wasn’t just this one client - multiple previous clients had done the same thing.
This wasn't just a legal violation - it was personal. When someone takes your intellectual property, they're not just copying processes; they're stealing pieces of your creative soul and the countless hours you've invested in developing your unique approach.
Thankfully, Katie's had robust contracts to fall back on, which gave her the legal standing to take action. But it still wasn’t easy. It was deeply confronting, unsettling and very personal.
Your Contracts Are Your Business Lifeline
Contracts aren't a nice to have - they're your business lifeline. They establish clear expectations, define rights and responsibilities and most importantly, they give you the legal authority to defend what you've created.
Too many designers treat contracts as an afterthought, focusing entirely on the creative work while leaving themselves completely exposed. Your contract should be as carefully crafted as your design concepts, because it's what stands between your business and potential disaster.
The Ethics of Authenticity
Katie and I agreed that there's another layer to this conversation: the ethical responsibility we have to ourselves and our industry. Copying someone else's work doesn't just expose you to legal consequences - it reveals a fundamental lack of integrity and originality.
Authenticity is what builds lasting business relationships because clients can sense when you're genuine versus when you're presenting borrowed ideas as your own. Those who rely on shortcuts and stolen concepts might see quick gains, but their success rarely lasts.
Building Protection Into Your Foundation
Protecting your business is about ensuring your reputation and creative work remain unquestionably yours. This means having processes and contracts designed specifically for your business, not generic templates that leave gaps in your protection.
Your intellectual property, your client processes, your unique approach to design - these are valuable business assets that deserve proper protection. Claiming ownership of your work and setting professional standards isn't being difficult and picky; it's being smart.
Your passion for design might drive your business, but the right protection is what sustains it. Don't wait until someone takes advantage of your trust to realise the importance of proper contracts and clear boundaries.
I have no doubt that this poignant conversation with Katie will get you thinking about your own business. She shares so many pieces of wisdom about how to better protect yourself and create a truly wonderful client experience that sets your business apart.
What's one area of your business that might need stronger protection? The conversation is worth having before you need it.
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[00:00:20] Tracey: Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Rise Up in Business podcast. It's not every day that I connect with somebody in business who I feel so deeply aligned with in terms of.
[00:00:32] Values, what drives the business being soul led and building a business from the heart. But certainly that's how I felt when I met Katie McFarland from Dakota Design Company. Katie and I connected last year, and we've stayed in touch and I can honestly hand on heart say that I've been so looking forward
[00:00:54] to sharing this conversation with you because of the value that I know every listener is gonna get out of this episode. Both in terms of interior design space and running an interior design business, but also in the business context and running a soul led business.
[00:01:10] I'm so thrilled to share this conversation with you. Katie is someone who I admire deeply and not only does she talk the talk, but she walks the walk. And I know you're going to glean that from the conversation that you're about to listen to. I hope you enjoy listening as much as I enjoyed recording this one.
[00:01:27] Let's dive in. Katie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.
[00:01:34] Katie: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:01:37] Tracey: I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite a while. many of my listeners are interior designers and most of them will know very well who you are. But for those listeners who don't know who you are, can you tell us a little bit about you and what it is that you do?
[00:01:51] Katie: Yes. So I am Katie McFarland. I own a coded design company. I am not an interior designer. I help interior designers with the [00:02:00] backend of their business. So I'm a business consultant and I help specifically with their business operations. So we really focus in on the client experience, and I kind of always say like, the client experience is not just cards and gifts.
[00:02:13] It's like every touch point your customers have with your business from. The first time they find you on Instagram or online, all the way through to reaching out to you, getting that first email or booking that first call with you all the way to you delivering the service and taking them through the process, giving them their design presentation, installing their room, and wrapping up with the project.
[00:02:32] So, What I do with interior designers is we help to help them map out that process and identify all those touch points on the front end that help to define what happens on the back end so that they can work more efficiently. They can hire out a team if they want, they can figure out what software they should be using.
[00:02:50] They can identify where they can use templates in their business. So things can happen a lot more quickly and seamlessly. Rather than creating everything from scratch. so I've been doing this work with interior designers since 2017. And obviously as my company's grown, we've, we've grown into helping with more of the backend operations, like hiring kind of advising on marketing, but not doing marketing specifically.
[00:03:13] But really, again, if you look at the operations of a company, there's so many different aspects of what. Happening behind the scenes. So, we are able to kind of advise designers on a lot of those different aspects of their business.
[00:03:25] Tracey: Honestly, just listening to you talk. I think you and I kindred spirits because processes and systems are my love language, and I say this to clients so often. I think processes and systems are sexy, and I think that they are the fundamentals to setting a business up for success. And one of the things I love about the way you and I have connected is that it's been so authentic and so aligned, and what you do, which is what I do, is so soul led from the heart and your business is a love and a passion, and.
[00:03:57] That just magnetized [00:04:00] me to your content and to you. And so many interior designers that I work with have shared similar thoughts and similar, similar views about the way they have been drawn to you as well because it is so genuine and soul led. So in working with interior designers in all of that space, and that's getting really intimate in their business operations and understanding how they work and what's important and what the pain points are.
[00:04:26] You get to see a lot of what goes into building the business, the blood, sweat, and tears.
[00:04:31] Katie: Yeah.
[00:04:31] Tracey: So you get to see then firsthand what it's like when something goes wrong.
[00:04:36] Katie: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, and, and for a lot of my clients, so you know, people are like, oh, I, I don't need a, a business consultant that's too fancy, or, I'm not ready yet, and I'll wait till I have this or that. And really, I mean, I've worked with designers who are on their way to their first 100,000 all the way to, you know, scaling past multiple millions with big teams.
[00:04:55] I think that it's so personal, right? And I think that, like I always say, like, hire somebody soon. Like once you know that this is what you wanna be doing and you have a couple clients under your belt, someone in so they can help, keep you on the right track, not go off. right?
[00:05:08] And like you were saying, I get so intimate with them, like I'll see their financials and a lot of times they're very embarrassed. Like, I don't really even know how to get you that report that you need, or, I haven't reconciled my numbers, or, you know, any of these things. So we kind of make them face a lot of their fears when we start working together because we dig into a lot of stuff.
[00:05:25] And a lot of that first initial thing is the numbers, right? Is like figuring out like the numbers of the things.
[00:05:31] Tracey: Tell me with the businesses that you work with and having been in business for as long as you have doing what you do. What are some of the things that you see go wrong for designers or where do they let themselves down? Because I'm very much all about preventions better than cure in business. So when it comes to setting yourself up for success, for me and the clients I work with and I support a lot of interior designers with their legals, it's contracts, it's agreements, it's thinking about your ip, it's protecting what it is you're [00:06:00] creating.
[00:06:00] I focus on that at the front end. So that I can help them set themselves up to avoid the pitfalls when things go wrong. Talk to me about what you see go wrong in that space.
[00:06:11] Katie: I can speak a lot to some legal things that I see designers do where I'm like, oh my gosh, if you just had a contract and followed, followed it. That would be amazing. But then also I see a lot of issues with the process of it where they don't have a process and so they're very much reacting to their client's needs and your clients.
[00:06:32] Don't know what they need. They don't know how to get the best result. They don't know how to make your process efficient for you so you can deliver them a result like they see in your portfolio. And so I see that happen a lot of times. Is that with, without any boundaries. Right. And again, it is a, a contract is boundaries and a process is boundaries.
[00:06:51] And so when you don't have either of those things in your company, you're probably thinking systems and processes aren't sexy because you're like, oh gosh, like that's too much. I gotta say no to people. I have to say, you know, put all these rules in place. That's not sexy. But I think for a lot of designers who don't realize how sexy that stuff is, it's because they don't have it.
[00:07:09] They haven't seen something that's run really well where people respect your boundaries and you do have the freedom to work on the things that you love working on, you know, in your business, which for designers is usually design and communicating with clients and presenting and, and all of that. So I would say from a process standpoint, where I see things start to really go wrong is not having the pricing conversation very early like people know I know what I charge. You know what you charge. If all of a sudden I got through to you, you wrote up a contract for me, you spent the time doing it, and then you real, I realized, oh shoot. You charge, let's just say $5,000 an hour, or your retainer is 10,000 US dollars and I was thinking, I was just gonna have you do a contract. I thought that was a thousand dollars, right? I'm not gonna go forward with you. You just wasted all that time. I wasted energy. You wasted energy. Like what a waste. If you'd said, this is my retainer, this is my hourly rate. Are you want to [00:08:00] proceed?
[00:08:00] I'd be like, oh yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, or, hmm, that's too much. I need to find someone else. So with a lot of designers, they are so afraid to have this conversation about the numbers because they're like, oh, people are gonna walk away. They don't know what all the numbers mean. And that is true, right?
[00:08:13] There has to be some education along with that information. But I think that for a lot of designers and a lot of really service providers, right? It's hard to talk about those numbers because it feels so personal. It's me doing a service for you from my brain. And so I think that can cause a lot of issues because then there's all this sticker shock that happens and for the client, so the designer's customer, they feel like, well, I had no idea one room was gonna cost me, you know, 25,000 in furnishings and they get this design presentation and they're like, I can't afford any of it. So I just paid this design fee. I can't afford to do the room, now i'm just mad, I'm ghosting you. You thought you were gonna get this project installed and photographed and like the whole thing goes off the rails. So I think that's a big thing.
[00:08:57] So I always advocate for speaking about pricing early, educating your clients about how much projects cost in your portfolio based on the work you are putting out there. So you can say, this is the quality that we design to. These are the vendors that we typically source from and how much our rooms typically come in at.
[00:09:14] Um, So I think that's something that's really important. I think a contract is obviously very, very huge in so many aspects. I think one, in protecting yourself from things going off of the rails. Two in protecting yourself in from like team issues that are happening.
[00:09:28] So whether you have employees or subcontractors protecting yourself there. And then I think also any contract you enter into like designers entered contracts with photographers all the time, is really reading and understanding what those mean, what rights you have, and what rights other people have to your photos because again, I know we're gonna talk about this in a little bit, like protecting all of your things, right? So I think from a a designer client contract, I think there's so many things in there where there's no timelines put in there, no revisions information [00:10:00] put in there. There's no like hourly rate changes in there.
[00:10:03] So obviously you've been doing this for a long time, like during COVID, so many designers were like, oh my gosh, these clients are locked into a 2018 hourly rate and I need to raise my prices, but I can't 'cause they're locked in at that, right? So they don't have any ability within their contracts to raise their rates because of the way they're written.
[00:10:21] It doesn't say who owns the designs, you know? And so clients who think then that they're the designers they don't move forward with the design with them.
[00:10:27] They like implement it on their own or go shop the design, do it on their own, and then they start saying, they designed it. When it's the designer's design, right. So I've seen a lot of that. I mean, I think that's very rare, but more often it's how can you keep your project on track? What happens if the client goes rogue or chops the design or thinks that they, you can just revise and revise and revise and not, pay for it.
[00:10:50] I think that's where you always fall back on the contract. So I think it's really like. Let your contract be the bad guy and let you be the designer. Like, sorry, my, my attorney told me that, you know, this is how they wrote it out. Here's why. Uh, it protects both of us in this process. So, I'm not one to shy away from calling something out that's in a contract if someone's, you know, trying to like go off track or go rogue.
[00:11:13] Tracey: Because you have an appreciation and a healthy respect for the value of the contract, and you're happy to rely on it, you're confident to rely on a really solid contract. That in itself is priceless, I think for businesses. And as you are talking, I'm thinking, Yes.
[00:11:27] I. Yes, that's right.
[00:11:28] I see it so often. And what I'm seeing more of recently is issues around intellectual property and who owns it, whether it's concepts, drawings, designs, whatever it is. Clients are saying, well, who owns it, Tracy? They're reaching out, new clients, reaching out. I need help because I've been terminated and now the client has taken my designs to somebody else to get them to finish it. But they can't do that. That's my design and often when they reach out to me, there's either no contract or I dunno if it's worse [00:12:00] than no contract, but certainly no better is a contract that I've cobbled together, i've Googled or I've copied someone else's and I've put a few things in and this is what I've got and there's so many holes in it.
[00:12:11] The whole thing's worthless. And there's a brand and reputation damage aspect to this as well, because when you present something to a client, they can tell very quickly that this is something cobbled together or it's something copied, or it's a template that's inadequate and it hasn't been tailored for your business.
[00:12:28] You're sending a message to the client either, I dunno what I'm doing or I don't care, but when it comes crunch time, you can't rely on that document because it doesn't serve you. So dealing with intellectual property and who owns what it is you've created, it's often missing. So when designers don't have that solid contract that's been drafted for them, they can't rely on it. So they don't even have the option of asserting their position to say, but this is mine. And then here in Australia, we need to go back to the Copyright Act and we need to get into that space.
[00:12:58] But the point is, it's the brand and reputation damage that can follow when that happens, because then the designer has to admit, this hasn't been a good relationship. It's failed. Client's terminated. They've gone to somebody else. What's gone wrong? Oh my goodness. This can all be avoided. And from everything you are saying, which is music to my ears, for designers that can be avoided.
[00:13:20] If you set yourself up for success from the beginning with your proper processes, your onboarding processes, your really intentional touch points, and you're taking the client on a journey right from the beginning all the way through to delivery, all the way through to offboarding, that's what success looks like in my mind.
[00:13:38] Katie: Yeah. Well, and I think also when you have a, a good process that just feels like buttoned up, cut and dry, this is how we do things. It shows that like I've done this enough times that I know this is what works. especially if you're a flat fee, do most designers do flat fee or hourly
[00:13:52] Tracey: Both. it's a
[00:13:53] Katie: it a mix?
[00:13:53] Okay, so it's a mix. So same as in, the us. So if, especially when you're billing flat fee, you're [00:14:00] guaranteeing them that you are going to provide whatever you've put in your scope of work. You are guaranteeing them that I am going to provide this at this fee that I'm putting here into this contract.
[00:14:10] And so if you don't have a process and you're putting a flat fee on a scope. you can't, well, you just one, you just can't. But I think that when you have a process and you're, you are guiding the client because you've done this before and you have a solid contract that outlines that process and covers all the weird things, and the client might say, oh my gosh, this is so crazy.
[00:14:30] What a long, crazy contract. Well, it's to protect both of us. We're gonna be working together for a long time. There are going to be so many moving parts, so many different aspects of this project. And every single thing that is in here is because of something that has either happened to me or that my attorney has seen.
[00:14:44] So we are just including it just to be safe. I know we're not gonna have any issues, but just so you know exactly like what the process is. So you, you guide them and so then they just naturally have more trust in you and they're not looking for things versus they get a contract that. Is cobbled together.
[00:15:00] That is very generic. like I see one page contracts for designers who are providing intellectual property, their design expertise, ordering. They're purchasing custom items. They're coordinating with, you know, like work rooms. They're doing install. There's so much liability for these designers.
[00:15:20] Also, they're working on construction projects and I'm just like. Oh my gosh. One page. Where did you get this? Like did this like come for free with the software program you got? This is mind blowing and oh my gosh. I've seen some that don't even have the hourly rate in it. if they bill hourly, I'm like, what is this?
[00:15:36] Like what? But they're like, well, I, I've never, ever had to even fall back on my contract. It's like, well, thank goodness, because this isn't really gonna protect you. But I think that once when you send something like that, and again, a lot of people who are hiring designers, especially on a higher level, they're doing the whole home.
[00:15:52] They're investing a million dollars in furnishings or whatever. A lot of times they have a lot of experience with contracts, like they didn't get to where [00:16:00] they're spending that much money on their house and on interior designers without having a lot of life or business experience. Right. And so I feel like they see that and they think, oh, this isn't a real business.
[00:16:09] Like this was just, you know, like, this is cute. So then they don't take that designer seriously and then that's where they're always kind of pushing back a little bit or objecting or finding, going through the, you know, building with a fine tooth comb or trying to say. This is what you should do instead of this part of your process.
[00:16:24] You've always done so, and I think, yes. I think it starts from the very beginning of your process and then you have a good contract and then everything that you create, all the parts of your process and how you manage problems. Like you look to your contract. Like people come to me, oh, this happened.
[00:16:38] What should I do? What does your contract say? you have a term in there, copy, paste, send to the client, and then offer them a, like an option. Either we, we stick with this, or this is what happens, and it should just be in your contract. To me, again, I'm not an attorney, but I just feel like why wouldn't you wanna protect yourself in that way?
[00:16:55] Especially when it is so much of what you do and the value of what you do is your ideas. you're not like selling a couch and you're protecting that couch like. Separate. You're selecting the exact right size sofa and the fabric for it. And the arm for it. And the leg for it. And you're fitting it into a room with 75 other things in it.
[00:17:15] that is what people are paying all the money for. So to me, I look at it like you have to work to protect your intellectual property, which is your designs.
[00:17:23] Tracey: You've just nailed it, Katie. why wouldn't you want to protect yourself and the value of being able to use that contract to navigate those tricky situations with a client, you wanna be taken seriously. So you want respect. You have to show respect. That's something that I talk to clients about about often, and that insight is.
[00:17:42] Really valuable and thank you for sharing that. And it's so lovely to hear that coming from somebody who's not a lawyer and who's just as passionate about processes and systems and contracts as I am which is one of the reasons I love talking to you so much. The business journey is not linear.
[00:17:55] It's not smooth, it's not easy, and it is personal. And I often [00:18:00] see posts on social media saying copying is, a sign of flattery and you know, it's like, it's not personal. It's flattery and, and all the things, but let's just call it when we're in this space and when we are soul led business owners, and when we do build businesses from our heart with so much love.
[00:18:18] It's personal. And so you would see that with clients you work with. It's personal. so someone does the wrong thing. It's personal. Someone says, I wanna terminate with you. It's personal. So we need to be protected in relation to that. But when it comes to things outside of that, let's talk about some of your experiences in terms of things not going smooth, because even the best processes and systems and contracts for business, I've got them.
[00:18:41] You've got them. Great. Things can still go sideways, things can, unexpected things can still come outta the woodwork and it's personal. So what do we do then in circumstances where, Let's say it's not a client that's copying, it's somebody else that's copying, that's personal, that feels deeply personal.
[00:18:59] Katie: I used to do one-on-one work with my interior design clients. I would do one-on-one consulting with 'em, and then we would do one-on-one system setups with them.
[00:19:06] Um, So we would create all the materials that would go out to their clients. We would set it up in their software. We would write copy for them. We would do all of these things, build everything out, and then we would continue to support them, train them on whatever we set up for them. Sometimes we would be training their teams on what we set up for them, if the designer themself wasn't gonna be the one who was using the materials.
[00:19:23] And so we were really involved. after doing that we, I did it with over a hundred clients. or it wasn't a hundred clients in, it was maybe 30 clients in.
[00:19:31] I was like, we're kind of doing the same thing with all the clients. We should templatize what we're doing so we can save me and my team time on the backend so we can charge the same, but become more efficient on the backend. So we did that and then someone was like, you should just sell the templates and not do the one-on-one work.
[00:19:44] And I was like. Oh my gosh, obviously. So we started selling our template separately. So now it was something that was getting into the hands of people without having to work with me, and I wasn't able to necessarily like stay in touch with them or [00:20:00] be with them and kind of like keep an eye on 'em. Right?
[00:20:02] Not like I did with my one-on-one clients, but it's such a personal relationship. You, we've worked with 'em for a few weeks, really get to know them, and you just felt like you built this rapport, you have this very detailed contract with your clients. For our template customers, we have a terms of use on our website.
[00:20:15] They acknowledge that they've purchased, they agree to the terms of use. We have all the things. But once I started selling templates, I started to feel a little bit more scared. Like this is my bread and butter and it's the service that we do with our clients. It's what we're known for in the industry is the client process.
[00:20:31] And now it's kind of got legs because I can't control it as much when I can only work with two clients a month versus now however many customers can buy these templates 'cause they're available on my website. So like I had my precautions in place. I would update my terms of use. I would read something and then be like, oh, we need to tighten it further.
[00:20:50] So I'd go back to my attorney and be like, oh, what about this use case or what about this? And so I, I really tried to stay on top of it, but then obviously you get busy, you're building your team. You know, we develop, we turned my one-on-one service into a group program because again, we were doing those same things with our one-on-one clients.
[00:21:04] So I was like, we could just turn this into like a program, right. So. So then it was last year in the fall I was on Instagram, which I've now taken Instagram off my phone 'cause I just can't. And I saw a former client who was promoting that, she's now a business coach and she was saying how she's going to help them with their process, help them develop their client experience.
[00:21:29] Tell them all the systems and software they should use and show them how she has her set up. Talk through the hiring process and what the contracts are that she writes for her team. And she was going to give them a bunch of deliverables. And so I saw it and I was like, you've gotta be kidding me. I worked with this client I think for like five or six months ' she did our client experience service and then she went on for like a monthly retainer client.
[00:21:50] And I saw it and it was like a jolt to my heart. And I was like, wait, that's everything that I did for her. I came [00:22:00] in, we redesigned her entire process. We created all of the assets to go audit at every phase. we set everything up in software. We trained her team on it. We looked at all her agreements with her team, we rewrote them.
[00:22:10] I worked with her attorney to rewrite the agreements and all the comp packages and everything. And like as we were working together, she would voxer me, it's like a walkie-talkie app and be like, oh my gosh, Katie, it's working. It's working. Like I'm crying because I can't believe how much money we left on the table.
[00:22:25] Like everything you set up for us, it's working. And I was like, I know I'm not fake. This is like, this is real. And so when I saw this post of hers that she's now a business coach or offering mentorship and she's teaching designers how to. Set up their process, how to price their services. It was like, wait, that's everything I did for you, for you and some of the deliverables you're giving away are deliverables that I created for you.
[00:22:52] So what did I do? I freaked out. I went straight to my contract, straight to my client contract, and I said, I wanna make sure that I have an ownership of works in here, and I wanna make sure that that ownership of work says I own everything I create. And it does. And I had that in all of my contracts because I knew to put that in my contract, so I had a choice. Do I reach out? Do I go after this person? How far do I wanna take it? How do you open yourself up emotionally to something that could be hostile? That could give you a bad reputation. this is what I hate, community over competition. It's like, no, no, no. you are using my assets that I created for you in a paid service to compete with my business.
[00:23:32] That is not community that is stealing and you're also in breach of contract I also have a copyright agreement in all of my contracts that anything that I create for them or that they get from my company, the copyright is mine. Even if they modify it, it's still, I own the copyright.
[00:23:47] And so I, I did reach out to my attorney and we did reach out to her and it kind of, I honestly just got scared and I was like, I just dunno if I can go forward with anything. And so I, I didn't [00:24:00] do anything. I did reach out to her. I did the initial, but that spurred me to put into place, which Tracy, you're probably like Katie, you're supposed to walk the walk.
[00:24:08] I do walk the walk. So this, what this did for me, this experience from a client that I worked with for what I felt was a long time and I helped her so much, we put into place an IP protection process. So now we have, every month we have a process where we look at former clients and we look to see what they're doing.
[00:24:27] We look to make sure they're not selling our templates, that they're not selling our services. So in this process, we discovered five other people, three total were clients, former clients. we reached out to all of them and they stopped. one of 'em got a little hostile and nasty and tried to lie and say that what she was doing was her own thing, but we could see our files that she was actively accessing our materials.
[00:24:53] And I then started to discover other things. It's like, it just about crushed me because here I am, I am recovering from finding these clients who I worked with so closely.
[00:25:03] Two of the three former clients, they called me crying. please, can you help me? I am so buried. I'm this or that. I, I, I can't keep working like this. Can you help me? And so I did. I squeezed them in and it ended up being a really great, positive working relationship. Helped them a lot and they, their crews have, have done really well.
[00:25:24] And so to see somebody who I was like, wait, I gave you so much time and energy. I, I was an open book for you. I did so much for you. Your team, your company, whatever. And to have you forget. Feels a little uncomfortable, and I wanted to say to the one lady who's now a mentor slash business coach, you need to let people know, this is what I learned from my business consultant, Katie McFarland, or how about Katie McFarland can come in and show you what she did for our company.
[00:25:53] Like I, I don't even necessarily care about the money, but more, I just want you to acknowledge that What [00:26:00] you're selling is like, I don't know. It felt very uncomfortable because again, she was giving deliverables away in her coaching program that we had created for her. So I ended up finding some other people who were, you know, really enjoying my stuff a lot and decided that they liked it for their own company.
[00:26:14] And cause again, this had just, we just found this out with several of our one-on-one clients and I was heartbroken. And, and I remember during this time we were so busy at my company and I was building out my team. So I had the, that infrastructure change going. I was doing one-on-one client work.
[00:26:31] We were in a lot of delivery. I remember working all the time. I had three little kids working all the time, feeling very stressed, hunched over my computer, working happy, passionate, energized, but so, so busy. And I sacrifice a lot of time with my kids during that time and When I saw those clients doing what they were doing, I thought, you're not just stealing from me.
[00:26:54] You are stealing from my children because I gave you time that I should have been giving to them. I should have had better boundaries, but I worked so hard for you and I then didn't have the time with my kids. I, I gave up time with them for this business. Now, there are sacrifices in life.
[00:27:09] Like to have a business, you have to have sacrifice, right? but then when I found a couple other people doing it, I just was like, no, I'm done. I am done. And so I, shared about my experience It really blew up. I had no idea actually, I, this one experience, I was getting ready for family photos with my kids.
[00:27:31] We were gonna do pictures for Christmas and I was getting ready and I saw something come through and I was like, wait, that's mine. I was so like over it. Because we're still dealing with this stuff from our clients, and I still have like lawyers going out from letters, going out from my lawyer to these three different women.
[00:27:48] And I, saw this thing and I was just like, I don't even know what to do. So I was like, I have to just like do something no offense to lawyers, but it's a, everything's a slow process. You send something to somebody and then they [00:28:00] got to get a lawyer and then their lawyer responds back and there's really no like.
[00:28:04] Urgency and you know that, but as a client I'm like, I need to know now. And it's like, that's not how it works. So I was like, I have to do something immediately. So I posted something online to share about my experience. That thing went like absolutely nuts. And here I am getting family photos taken with my husband and my three little girls and our dog.
[00:28:24] And I go back to my phone and I had like 600 notifications. And I was like,
[00:28:29] Tracey: Wow.
[00:28:30] Katie: And I was like, oh my gosh, what's going on? And I like looked through it and I was like, oh my gosh. Like. This is resonating so much with people and in that experience, I had so many designers, other types of business owners reach out and say, well, this happened to me too, or Something similar happened to me and I was too scared to do it.
[00:28:47] And seeing how you're doing this is so like. It like makes me feel like I could do that. Like I could fight for my ip. then I had reached out to you and we kind of talked about like designers are, you know, this has to all business owners, but I think specifically with interior designers, it's a primarily female industry.
[00:29:05] And we as women, or maybe I'm speaking for myself, but we have this weird guilt. When we're really good at something and we can charge someone a lot of money for it. And sometimes it feels like, well, I don't know, like I feel kind of like guilty about it, right? So it feels almost wrong to be like, wait, you took something from me.
[00:29:24] You are in breach of contract, or whatever it is. And, and that's not yours to take and then to fight for it. And in a sense where it's kind of very public. again, a lot of designers shared their stories about things happening to them, like we talked about.
[00:29:39] You know, realtors and builders taking designers specs and using them for other projects without permission. Horrible, horrible, horrible team members taking designs that they designed with a designer. So, you know, let's say I work for, you know, Suzy Q, this designer, and I'm her design assistant and I helped with the design.
[00:29:58] Well, I'm leaving her firm now, and [00:30:00] I'm gonna take pictures of that design that she paid to photograph that. She paid me to design and I'm gonna take 'em and put 'em on my website and use those as my own. So using their own. Their own portfolio to compete with them, taking clients and vendors from them or, you know, trades really is more what I've seen.
[00:30:17] You know? So we learned a lot of stories. I had another woman who had reached out who said that. Someone essentially joined one of her free webinars and she's in a different industry, and then started teaching the same exact webinar.
[00:30:30] Like, she's like, she like legit, must have recorded it and then remade it. And she said she found out about it and she reached out to her once and the lady was so nasty back to her. She said, I, I almost quit my business. I went into hiding for almost a year because I felt so, so stolen from, and this woman has kids and she's like.
[00:30:50] like, this business is my livelihood. And for her to, to take my materials and compete, it was just sickening. So I learned a lot of just stories about what other people have gone through and how why are people so afraid about it? Right. And I think it, it is because it is kind of scary.
[00:31:05] And what I've learned from everything I've gone through is that you have to identify. What are your, like money makers? What are the things that make a lot of money or bring a lot of attention to your company, right? What are the things you're known for like identify those and then if those are the things that someone is stealing or copying, or.
[00:31:24] Trying to do something with it. They shouldn't be. They don't have permission. Then I think you talk to an IP attorney and you find out What can I do here? And then you show them, these are my contracts, here's my terms of use on my website. Here's the process Someone goes through when they buy something from me.
[00:31:39] Here's the contract they signed with me. do I have a strong case here? Then I think on a personal level, you have to know that it will be so deeply emotional because it is so personal and you will want to hide because you'll feel like, well, if somebody can just take my stuff and say that they're me, then what am I even [00:32:00] doing?
[00:32:00] I just felt like foolish, like I have been so generous with my information, my advice, my experiences, The insights that I have from truly, I think unprecedented work with over a hundred interior designers in the US and Canada, and I was sharing a lot of those insights and advice for free, Like I was foolishly generous to the point where I was teaching my competitors and they competed with me and took.
[00:32:31] Business from me because of the information I was giving so freely and so generously. Now, did I help more people? Absolutely. Absolutely I did and I'll never be mad about that. But on some level I feel that was, I just so foolish. And so, you know, finding out when people are taking your things or stealing from you or in breach of contract with you and are willfully trying to profit from your work that is protected by a contract.
[00:32:58] it is very painful. And so I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But again, I think the thing is if you, I feel confident going forward if someone is doing that to me, and it's in a way that is, is harming my reputation or my brand or creating confusion in the marketplace. Or if at a personal level, I know that they're committing fraud or misrepresenting themselves or taking money from people when they should not be because.
[00:33:23] that's not their experience. Like just because I set something up for somebody and their business network worked for them, that does not mean you should sell that to other people. You know what I mean? So I think that if you have good contracts, it makes it a heck of a lot easier.
[00:33:37] 'cause when I talk to my attorney about things, we have this new person we just identified who's purchased our templates and is selling them. She said, no, no, no, no. I um, I modified these from yours. I was like, yeah, uh, that would be creating a derivative work, which is forbidden. Uh, so it's, and nasty about it.
[00:33:59] [00:34:00] Nasty about it to where I'm like, is this even worth it? Can I, can I do this? Right? so again, I think for interior designers, I would look at it like. If someone's coming into your business and working for you, you need to have a contract that clearly states who owns the works they create, whether it's an employee or a contractor.
[00:34:17] correct me if I'm wrong on the terminology you guys use in Australia, but for us it's like ownership of works. Who owns the work created. So generally as an interior designer, if you're hiring anybody to come into your company, like even if you hire a subcontractor to do renderings for you, I would still want that work to be yours.
[00:34:35] They're creating it. You've hired them to create it for you, so they shouldn't be able to go and and sell that rendering to someone else. Or say, I'm a designer now. Here's this beautiful rendering I did. It was designed by such and such designer, but I own the work so I can do whatever I want with it. So again, you always just have to think like, what are my money makers?
[00:34:56] what is my ip? What are the things that I. Clients are paying me a lot for, there's a leak there, right? That could potentially be a loss for you. And then you have to think, how can I protect that as best I can? And it's with your client contract, it's with your contract, with your employees or your subcontractors.
[00:35:11] Even if a subcontractor is giving you an you a contract, like you hire somebody and maybe they're gonna set up like a workflow for you, I would still make sure that anything they create for your company, you find out is it yours or is it theirs, right? Because if you're giving them your materials. And then they say, well, if I create and put in the system, it's mine now.
[00:35:29] So then what can they sell your process that you've documented and been using for 20 years? Right. So I just think there's so many things. And then I see this so often, you know, designers who post other people's work in their feed and they don't credit it and. I get the argument on both sides of that, but like, Instagram is your portfolio.
[00:35:49] Like it's a way that you can showcase your work, what's going on behind the scenes at your studio, let people get to know you. But if you're showing other people's work, what is that like? It's a grab. I've even seen. [00:36:00] Designers who have other designers take their pro photos They take their pictures, put 'em on their website and say, shop this design.
[00:36:09] And then they make affiliate money on that. my clients who have had this happen to them, we get their attorney involved and really we get their photographer involved because the photographer has owns the rights most often.
[00:36:20] Tracey: Absolutely. And that's exactly the same here as well, that the photographer will own the rights unless there's an agreement where they say otherwise. But that's, that's exactly right. Katie, you have been so, so generous in sharing all of that absolute gold for designers and everything you've shared applies to designers across the globe.
[00:36:38] So whether it's Canada or the us, but it applies equally to designers here. So I can't thank you enough from the bottom of my heart for being so. Honest and vulnerable about your experience because there's so many takeaways, Katie, but what I just am loving so much is for business owners and designers to know. It is personal and that's Okay.
[00:36:59] because too often business owners are told, don't take everything. So personally, it's business. No, no. It's freaking personal because I've poured my heart and soul into my business. And like you'd said, they've stolen from you, but also from your kids
[00:37:14] and that hits hard. So that, that's gonna hit hard with just about every business owner listening to
[00:37:20] Katie: And,
[00:37:20] Tracey: And
[00:37:20] just hearing your story and you've been So, generous in sharing just some parts of some of your stories from business, but just hearing that I know is going to land with designers and give them almost like the permission slip that they need to go. Okay, I am gonna back myself here. I'm gonna stand up for this and this is not okay.
[00:37:40] I've had many discussions with clients over the years and designers over the last 12 months, and it's very much around this has happened. I know it's wrong, but oh geez, that person's really nasty. I really don't wanna go there. Listening to your story. It's fundamental in reframing it.
[00:37:56] It's not okay and it's not okay. So you've talked about [00:38:00] empowerment. You've talked about your processes and systems, empowering your business, your contracts empowering. You can make informed decisions in consultation with your attorney. This is what's happened. What am I gonna do about it? Here are my options.
[00:38:10] So you make informed decisions. Am I gonna let that one go? Am I gonna pursue that one? What am I going to do? But you've got the options because you've got the solid platform so you can make decisions. Based on solid contracts, knowing what's right and wrong, and you can make a decision, and you're absolutely right.
[00:38:26] Anytime you get embroiled in a dispute or a legal staus, it's emotional, it's draining, it's stressful, and it's expensive. But sometimes it's absolutely the best path. And just by listening to you saying enough's enough. Just don't do it. One thing I wanna say on closing, and I've spoken about this on the podcast in the past because people have copied me, not to the extent that you've been copied by any means, but it's happened and sometimes I've, I've had a talk to myself and I've had this talk with clients, and the part that we haven't touched on here is.
[00:39:02] Leave aside the fact that it's misrepresentation. It can be fraud, it can be stealing, theft, all the things. It's also really shortsighted from the person who's doing the copying because if you have no originality, if you have no integrity, your lifespan in your business is not going to be long, my friend.
[00:39:22] It is going to be short-lived because people will find you out, whether it's in the legal space, the creative space. Whatever space it might be, there's only so long the charade can go and I feel sad for people that are doing the copying, listening to you. People that do copy can get an insight here to go, oh my gosh, I'm actually decimating somebody's livelihood.
[00:39:46] This is actually really impacting them. 'cause guess what? They're a human.
[00:39:50] This matters. This is wrong, not just in the legal space, but on a moral and ethical personal level. This is just wrong.
[00:39:57] Katie: Yeah, but also to like, how can I [00:40:00] do this to my clients, knowing every time I sell this to them or sell this to anybody, that it's not actually mine. Like, if I'm doing something wrong, like every time I'm doing something wrong, I feel sick about it.
[00:40:13] I just couldn't imagine like, you know, you're doing it to this business owner. You know, you're doing it to your clients and every time you do it to your clients, it's like. just imposter
[00:40:24] Tracey: It is dishonest. It is. It's dishonest. I actually have a client at the moment, completely different space, physiotherapy space. An employee left. Took her staff, took her client list, and is now reaching out to her clients, trying to offer services, which she learnt and is copying from the physiotherapist who had employed her.
[00:40:41] It happens, the takeaway here that I want listeners to take away, there's so many takeaways, Katie. There's just so much. So thank you for sharing so openly. But the takeaway is make sure you're setting yourself up for success in your business with your processes and systems, but have your contracts in place.
[00:40:58] Know your contracts, so you know. You can Go.
[00:41:01] back and rely on them when something untoward or unexpected happens. Because in business we all know something unexpected will happen. Let's hope it doesn't happen to so many people, the copying component. But the reality is it does make a decision that's right for you, but.
[00:41:16] It's okay to back yourself. It's okay to actually stand up and say, actually, I'm not gonna take this. This is not all right. So we don't all have to be shrinking violence and think, oh no, I'm just gonna sit back here and, and do my thing and I don't want to, to rock the boat to that. I say rock the boat.
[00:41:31] Rock the hell outta the boat and stand up and do what's aligned and what's right for you, which is exactly what you've done. So thank you,
[00:41:40] Katie. There are so many ways people can work with you.
[00:41:42] and I'm going to put all of your links in the show notes, but there's one offer in particular that I would love you to talk about.
[00:41:48] Katie: Yeah, so we actually have a, a complimentary download that kind of talks, walks designers through building out their client experience and different phases of the process to look at. it's like a blueprint. Um, that they'll get [00:42:00] and then a few additional emails with it.
[00:42:01] And then they will get added to my weekly email list where we email over 16,000 interior designers every Friday. one of the ladies who works with me is a certified interior designer and a tenured design professor. And so she writes a. Newsletter twice a month, which is actual lessons from design school because she teaches at design school.
[00:42:18] So we kind of covered the design and the business side. of
[00:42:21] Tracey: That's incredible. I'm going to put the link to that in the show notes as well so people can just dive in and access that one really easily. Katie, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing. This has been so valuable. I'm so grateful that you've shared and it's been such a treat talking to you.
[00:42:36] Katie: Thank you for having me.
[00:42:39] Tracey: Gosh, I just loved having that conversation with Katie. As you can tell, we are so aligned on so many levels, and like I said at the beginning of the conversation, it just feels like we're kindred spirits in terms of what drives us in business and what we stand for and what we pour into supporting our clients.
[00:42:56] I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I hope you were able to take away many nuggets of gold that you can now implement into your own business, whether you are an interior designer or not, the importance of processes and systems, how sexy they can be, the value of contracts.
[00:43:11] And like Katie said, why would you not want to invest in contracts for your business? So, my gosh, she's talking my love language. All of Katie's details are in the show notes, including Katie's download for a Luxury Client Experience. You'll find it all in the show notes.
[00:43:26] Thank you so much for joining me. I'll catch you next time.
LINKS:
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